Be The Bank S5 Ep3 - It's a Grind with Non-Performing Loans
On episode 3 of season 5, Justin Bogard and Richard Thornton discuss Non-Performing Loan stories!
Key Takeaways:
Resources and links discussed
About the Host
Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!
Connect with the Host:
Be The Bank S5 Ep3 - It's a Grind with Non-Performing Loans
On episode 3 of season 5, Justin Bogard and Richard Thornton discuss Non-Performing Loan stories!
Key Takeaways:
Resources and links discussed
About the Host
Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!
Connect with the Host:
Interested in real estate. How about wealth? Well, they go hand in hand. And here you'll learn all about it. About it. Welcome to Be the Bank, a podcast where we discuss and debate the topics centered around real estate investing. Your host, Justin Bogart, shares insights into investing in real estate to create real wealth and passive income for you and your family. He'll share stories of real estate investments done right, walk you through the process of owning a real estate note, and most importantly, educate you. So you can be the bank. Bank. This is be the bank brought to you by American note buyers. Now, here's your host, Justin Bogard.
Justin Bogard:Welcome to episode number three Today. Non-performing loans, are they easy to do? Are they difficult to do? What kind of pitfalls can you run into? And how fun can they be to predict what's gonna happen? Stay tuned. Richard, you are back from Vietnam. How was it? I am
Richard Thornton:And I'm still alive.
Justin Bogard:<laugh>. And, and yes, there is a better time difference. It used to be 12 hours. Now it's only three hours. Time difference.
Richard Thornton:That's right. And, and I only got sick once during the trip. I only got food poisoning once. So how about that?
Justin Bogard:How about that? That's surprising. That's something I didn't ask you about. I know that when we had had spoken one time, you mentioned that you, something didn't agree with you and you were like, yeah, this is, haven't it happened one time? Are they actually pretty surprising? I would've thought it happened more than once.
Richard Thornton:Yeah. Well, you know, you, you always have to be careful. You have to eat cooked foods for the most part. But even if you do that, um, there's the occasional little buggy Yeah. That gets in there. Um, uh, I mean the locals can all, can all drink the water and things like that. It's just that, uh, our metabolisms aren't set up the same way. There are, so something we have to be careful for.
Justin Bogard:I was just gonna ask you about the water. Is it safe to drink there then?
Richard Thornton:No. Or no? No. Yeah, everything is, they, they all have, uh, if they drink water out of their tap, they have filters on'em. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, special filters to get a lot of the microbes out of them. And we as, as travelers unfortunately, end up using a lot of, um, bottled water that comes in plastic bottles. And so you, you're generating a lot of plastic bottles, which we would rather not. What we try and do is, uh, get one of the start of a trip and basically keep refilling it. But you can't always do that because you're, every time you go through security at a airport, you have to empty it out cuz you can't take it through security and yeah. Those type of things. But, um, yeah, no, you pretty much have drink, um, bottled water.
Justin Bogard:So what do you do when you cook food? Cause I'm sure the tap water that comes from the sink, you have to boil it before you use it. To cook food,
Richard Thornton:You have to boil it at least for three minutes. And, and honestly we just used, uh, we'll get some very big bottles of water<laugh> and Yeah. If you're gonna, like, if you're gonna make, so we had two out of the five week trip. Uh, two weeks of it were Airbnbs and so we were, we're doing some of our own cooking and things there. Yeah. And for that you can use, uh, we did use tap water a couple of times, um, to make just, uh, spaghetti and that kind of stuff. Simple stuff. But you have to let it boil for at least three minutes, um, before you, you can, uh, before it's safe to use.
Justin Bogard:So then can, are you able to use like a Brita filter or something like that to pour the tap water into the container and then we'll filter out everything at that point? Or is it still dangerous to drink?
Richard Thornton:I suppose you could, but you gotta take it with you and, you know, that's true. Yeah. In, in our instance, we were trying to do five weeks of travel. Yeah. Um, and have nothing more than a carryon. Well, northern Vietnam is pretty chilly. You know, you've got a lot of days, Northern Vietnam, cuz it's way up in the hills that are only 40 degrees. Oh wow. In southern Vietnam it was 85 and, and uh, uh, humid,
Justin Bogard:Complete opposite,<laugh>
Richard Thornton:All that into, um, a carryon bag.
Justin Bogard:Right.
Richard Thornton:Um, that's a challenge. We did it, but it's a challenge.
Justin Bogard:Do you each had your own carry-on or just one you shared, you shared one carry-on.
Richard Thornton:We each have what each have our own carry-on. But I mean, it's gotta fit into the, into the overhead. And basically what that means is that you have, for me, three shirts, two pairs of shorts, and one pair of long pants, and then a whole bunch of underwear and t-shirts and things like that. You get very sick of wearing those three shirts. But a, well, you know,
Justin Bogard:<laugh>, they
Richard Thornton:Do a lot of wash and guess what? Nobody cares cuz you know, they're only seeing you once.
Justin Bogard:That sounds like my home life have two pairs of shorts,<laugh>, and one pair of pants. And
Richard Thornton:It, it works so
Justin Bogard:Well, that's awesome. We're glad that you made it back to the US and you had a great experience. You and, um, gida had a great time out there, so I'm sure you'll have a bunch of pictures that you'll compile for us so we can see.
Richard Thornton:Yeah, I'd, hi. I highly would highly recommend it, you know, and, and Gida and I make, uh, videos, uh, she's a professor for all those you don't know it, uh, geology and climate change. So we make videos for a lot of our classes and, and, um, a lot of'em are, I find quite interesting. Um, I think I'm going to make, uh, and if, if anybody was interested, they can have access to this. But I'm gonna make just a couple of what I'll call lower grade photo essays, which are, um, for instance, I'm gonna do one on street food. We went to both Thailand and to, uh, Vietnam. And there's a lot of really good, uh, and fun, uh, street food. They make some sticky rice things. I mean some barbecue things that we've never seen over here. Matter of fact, I'd like to bring some over here to
Justin Bogard:Cook.
Richard Thornton:They make a a, uh, believe it or not, what I would call, um, a banana taco<laugh> a rice paper, which is, which is very tasty. Yeah. Um, and uh, basically what I'm gonna do is just, uh, uh, bring a lot of the videos but paste a lot of the videos and stuff like that up that I have together, uh, and do a voiceover and with a little bit of music. And, uh, it's interesting to watch and it's not, it's not fancy, it's not like a podcast video that you'd see on in this instance, but, um,
Justin Bogard:It's not gonna be a discovery channel.
Richard Thornton:Um, no, no. The uh, channels thing, yeah. The things we do for Peter's classes are much higher quality, let's say than
Justin Bogard:That, but Okay. Right on.
Richard Thornton:Yeah. Kinda fun
Justin Bogard:Non-performing loans. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I wanna get into some topics today about non-performing loans mm-hmm.<affirmative> and kind of the experiences that we both have either, you know, with loans that we've bought together or loans that we have bought in on our own before we kind of did things together. And so one of the things that newer investors kind of get the, the feeling is that maybe I should get the non-performing loans first because it's just like flipping a house, right? You just gotta fix the paper. The the person isn't paying their mortgage, you know, let's go knock on their door and get them to start paying again. And oh, hey look, you know, this is gonna be a great return for us. Um, it doesn't work like that does it, Richard?
Richard Thornton:Well, it can, but, but no, I mean, uh, I mean, I, I think there's a lot of, um, or at least several people, uh, beating the, the drum on Facebook and, uh, trying to be sort of an HD H G T V, uh, note non-performing note buyer. Yeah. Um, and they, they leave out a lot of the potential pitfalls and you can have potential pitfalls because you didn't craft the deal correctly. Um, and you can have, uh, potential pitfalls because of the project. In other words, there's things in there that you didn't know. Yeah. Uh, one of my worst deals turned out to be a deal that, um, was not tied to the foundation at all. And in California here, that's pretty bad with earthquakes cuz things fall off their foundations. Um, and or stuff can go sideways on the legal side. So you have to, that's sort of the three main categories I think.
Justin Bogard:You can't really predict an r ROI on a non-performing loan. And I see a lot of people that do that, and I think they do that to entice others to want to invest with them. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I just think that's wrong. I don't, I don't think you should be. Well, I don't shouldn't say I don't think you shouldn't be doing that. Right. Because by definition of roi, it's return on investment. Right. So how can you predict what an R ROI is when you haven't had the investment mature? Right. So I, I don't like it when people do that cuz I don't do that with anybody that would invest with us or has invested with me in the past on, uh, joining together on and on performing loan. It, it just, just is what it is. You're buying it for a certain price, you know what the value is today, and you're guessing what the struggle is and how you can go about finding an exit for you and your, your partner in the deal. And it doesn't always go the way that you think it goes. Just kind of like flipping a house, right? You're never on time and you're never on budget. So two things that are pretty much guaranteed when you do a flip. Right.<laugh>, if you are on time and on budget at the same time, you should go out and buy a lottery ticket because that rarely happens.
Richard Thornton:<laugh>. Yeah. And I, and I can say, I mean, I, I have made, I don't want a anybody in the listing crowd to think, uh, oh gee, you know, Richard and justice just aren't, you know, they don't know what they're doing. They're nonperforming loan buyers because I I have made money. Yeah. Um, and I, if I suspect that you have too. Yes. Uh, but, um, the first deal I bought, uh, as a non-performer, I'm, I as my estimate, uh, bought it correctly. Um, I ran all the numbers of what I thought I could get for it. And, you know, long story short was that the, um, renovation turned out to be double what I thought it was gonna be. Yeah. Oops. You know, um, you know, things like that.
Justin Bogard:There's a lot of unknown factors that you can't, um, discover when you're going through the buying process and doing your due diligence on and on performing alone. It's just, it just is what it is. There's, it is tough to do non-performing loans. It can be very lucrative. That is absolutely true. And I have had killer deals and I know you have too, but it doesn't always work out that way. So I guess I'm just given like a cautionary tale or conservative approach to those out there that may want to do that or pursue that. That number one, you gotta have a lot of experience in this stuff. And if you don't need to tether yourself to somebody that is experienced, like, you know, example, Richard and myself have done several non-performing loans and, and we do them together still. Uh, but we're very selective of us about which ones we choose because we know that it's a grind with non-performing loans. We know there's a strategy that you have to work with your vendors, meaning, you know, the attorneys you use, the loan servicing companies that you use there, there's a whole process to that. There are requirements that certain states, uh, say you can and can't do as the lender. So if it's vacant or if it's occupied, there's things that you can and can't do. Um, so you need to be aware of that stuff. So if it, if you're up to it and you can stomach it, not performing loans can work out really well for you and be a great strategy. But if you're not prepared for it or know somebody that can partner with you that is prepared to handle all that stuff, it can be a disaster sometimes.
Richard Thornton:Um, yeah. It's, it's very time consuming. I think that's one of the things that people don't realize. I, I think in, in, I don't know what you've done in, in your practice before we started doing business together, but for myself, I never wanted to have more than two going at once. Yeah. I wanted to have my performing side going because the non-performing can be a huge time suck. I, I've got one going, um, in the St. Louis area right now that, um, uh, I'm going on about 18 months to foreclose on because the cra the borrower keeps, you know, making a short payment here, uh, and there and restarting the clock. Um, and it's just been very, very difficult. Um, so you never know.
Justin Bogard:Yeah. The, I'll share with you, one of the worst non-performers I ever had was where I bought it and I went to go visit it, took some pictures of it cuz it was in Indiana. And um, and then, um, I didn't get all the communication that was going on with it and I didn't, uh, I wasn't able to check with the local municipalities to find out, um, what sort of, you know, violations there were on it so I could take care of them. And it all happened so fast before I knew it. They tore the house down the, the city demoed it, demoed the house. Uh, cause it was,
Richard Thornton:Uh, so so you lost money on the deal?
Justin Bogard:I did lose money on the deal.
Richard Thornton:Uh,
Justin Bogard:And so that was one of one of the worst cases that I ever ran into. And I did lose money on the deal, so mm-hmm.<affirmative> that is, uh, you know, something that lessons you learned and, and things move quickly. So that, that was a rare case. Um, I haven't had that issue since then.<laugh>. Right, right. So I I, I obviously learned from that lesson and so we, we check things and, and we make sure that, you know, we're not gonna be expedited into something like that in the future. Um, so when we buy a non-performing loan intentionally, we kind of figure out all the scenarios that we don't wanna run into and just really do some good research on it. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and, uh, we end up having some, some good luck with it and we know we can ride the wave on it. We do have some loans that are performing when we buy them and become non-performing.
Richard Thornton:No, that never happens. It does<laugh> no
Justin Bogard:<laugh> It does, it does. But those end up being not as bad either because there's already somebody in there, they were paying at some point something happens. So you make some adjusted adjustments, you pivot and you kind of get them going down the right track. Those still end up being too bad. We, we do have one together that we are working on, still working on, and we made it all the way through the foreclosure sale and the borrower is still in the property and for whatever reason, they just, you know, decided they didn't wanna pay nor communicate. And there is a redemption period now that the property is foreclosed on because it didn't sell at the sheriff's sale. And so for the next six months, technically the borrower could still stay in that property and live there Scott free. And there's nothing I can do about it until the redemption period expires. Right. So those are, those are kind of the interesting things that you want to know about before you go into it. Luckily we, you know, we buy things, you know, in a, at a manner at which we know if it's gonna be a problem that we're very well protected. So even though we may not be making money as cash flow in the interim when it comes to the time we get the property back, it's not gonna be an issue being able to, um, make money on the deal.
Richard Thornton:Yeah. Um, I almost, um, bought a deal that was much like, uh, the one you just mentioned it in terms of beginning it ripped down. Um, it was actually, yeah, outside of Des Moines, Iowa and Des Moines, Iowa is, is ripping down houses because it's costing the city more to keep them, uh, up than down<laugh>. Um, but I was gonna buy the mortgage for 40,000 and I just happened to call the city. This didn't show up on title or anything like that. I just happened to call the city, um, to ask about the neighborhood. And the woman behind the desk said, well, where is this house? And she asked, well, how much I was gonna do this for? And she said, well, we're going through there that, that entire area and ripping down houses and giving owners$12,000 a house. And I'm going, holy smokes. You know, and with that I dodged the bullet, but that's, yeah. Had I not asked that question, I would've been in the same boat that you did. Yeah.
Justin Bogard:And that, that isn't a likely circumstance. That is another rare circumstance that just happened to happen to both of us that we ran across something like that. Um, again, it's just not, not to scare the audience, but thing things can go happen that are kinda outta your control and you don't know what you don't know unfortunately. So again, you know, my biggest piece of advice to anybody is just, you know, tether yourself to somebody that knows what they're doing and actually has skin in the game as well. And that's really the best way to get through one of these for your first couple of deals. And then when you get more confidence and you understand the process and the procedure and how things work, especially if you're just focused in one state and doing this stuff, it's easy to remember what the rules and regulations are. And you can, your expectation will be realistic as to what's gonna happen. But if you're going to new states like we do now, we're very cautious and ask a lot of questions before we buy'em. It's obviously much more difficult to underwrite a non-performing loan than it is a performing loan because there's a ton of scenarios you just have to line up to figure out what's gonna happen next. Performing loan is pretty easy to figure out, hey, they've been paying, they've been paying pretty well. Here's the property value, here's what we can buy it for. Okay, let's move forward.
Richard Thornton:Right. And I would also caution people, um, quite often your servicer will volunteer to, uh, process, uh, the foreclosure. Do not do that. I've, I've, uh, had two experiences with that, um, and shame on me, uh, for doing the second time. But, but in both instances I was really busy. I didn't think I was gonna have the time to do it. Yeah. But it's just not necessarily the servicer's priority and, um, they're not gonna stay on top of it. And both instances, uh, I spent a whole lot longer in the foreclosure period merely because they weren't watching the ball and, and, uh, moving things along and keeping pressure on legal counsel.
Justin Bogard:Yeah. And, and that's what it is. It's, it's not the highest and best use for them to be the middle man for a foreclosure. If you don't know what you're doing and, and you're willing to kind of learn and, and have a, a little bit of a time lag, it's okay to do that. It's just with Richard and I with our experience, we can expedite things much quicker because we can remove the middle band, so to speak, and we can get in front of the attorney and go back and forth pretty quickly and get resolution or we know when to follow up. Be like, I haven't heard from that guy three or four days after that email that I sent him or her. Let me, let me ping them again and find out what the holdup is. Or if they need, if they're waiting for me to pay an invoice, you know, that's, that would be their<laugh> usually why they're, they're kind of down there not moving forward if they haven't been paid, obviously.
Richard Thornton:Right. So, um, something I've, I've, uh, heard about lately too is, um, basically busted flipper loans, you know, flippers, uh, hard money lenders, uh, make a loan to a flipper and either they can't come get the, the price the cost goes over or what are, um, what do you know about, uh, actually buying those as non-performers? How would you do that?
Justin Bogard:So that would be buying like a hard money loan. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, right?
Richard Thornton:Yeah. It would ty typically they would have a one, maybe a two year term on'em, but probably just a one year term cuz the flipper wants to get in and out in 90 days. They, that, that was their goal to start with.
Justin Bogard:So I've had opportunities like that before and I haven't ended up purchasing those non-performing hard money loans because I think my pricing was too aggressive for the lender to want to sell it to me. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And the reason why is, is because my radar goes off. So I've been a flipper before, I've used hard money, so I understand from the flipper's perspective as to why you need the money. And then also if I got into a jam and I just couldn't finish the project, you know, what, what are you gonna do and how can you pay for the loan? You basically can't pay for the loan, right? Because the interest rate is so high and it's interest only every month for, let's just say a year. They're typically a year loan or 11 month
Richard Thornton:Loans. Right.
Justin Bogard:So I would approach it as how can I figure out today's value of this property, number one. And is it in any sort of condition that somebody could live in there? Most likely the answer is I probably can't figure out value because it's just, you know, it, it's in a rehab state and number two, it's probably not livable. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So I'm kind of turned off at that point to even take over that loan because if I had to take the property back then I have to do a lot of work now and get people involved to kind of deal with it and fix it and move it forward in a direction. Now if I got it for a really good price, I'm willing to do the work and step in. But from my perspective in the seat that I'm in today, it's, it's not something that I would want to go after and use as like a product that I, that I advertise that I buy all the time. It's a product I would buy if the price was right.
Richard Thornton:So let's say though that you've got a flipper, a couple flippers in your area, and you can do'em, you can buy those notes, uh, from the flipper your backyard. So you can go inspect the property. You can say, you can acknowledge, let, let's, I'm just pulling numbers out of the house. Yeah. Let's say they, they bought the house for um, a hundred, uh, it's a gut. Um, they're gonna have to put uh, 60 into it to, uh, turn it back around and that would be a, a very inexpensive, uh, uh, turnaround. Um, and they're, they're halfway through it. So you thought you could kind of manage it if they, they couldn't, would you consider something like that?
Justin Bogard:I would consider something like that. You, you kind of hit the nail on the head. It's one, it's close to me geographically so I can put my eyes on it and not just depend on somebody else to tell me what the shape of it is. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And number two, with my experience, I, I know walking into it like, okay, it, it's, this is manageable. It's not gonna take that much more effort. And I also may have a crew or know somebody that has a crew that could get to it in a timely manner and I would have more confidence in buying that. But if it was across state lines and I wasn't used to it and I didn't know a lot about it, it would be very difficult for me to want to buy a paper like that.
Richard Thornton:Right.
Justin Bogard:Um, just from my standpoint.
Richard Thornton:Yeah. I think it also makes a big difference too. What condition the flipper's in. If he's saying, look, I'm just done, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm,
Justin Bogard:That's the assumption. They're just not gonna pay you. Right.
Richard Thornton:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and uh, even with what you're, I mean cuz you gotta figure out, let's say it was, um, uh, maybe an$80,000 loan. Yeah. Uh, the, the hard money lender is you're gonna have to, you know, fight tooth and nail to get like a 50% discount on that note. But that's kind of really what you need because the reason that the flipper is where he is, is he's probably got such a deficit either on the sales side or he is way over, way over budget. Yeah. Well,$40,000, um, is gonna get you nowhere<laugh> in terms of Yeah. If he's only discounting or coming off the price, uh, 40,000. I realize sitting out here in California, 40,000 is is nothing of a discount to me in your area or in the Midwest. That might be a pretty significant discount. But, but either way, the point is, is that the discount that the, that you might be able to negotiate with, uh, the, um, hard money lender is probably not gonna cover your downside. So you're really gonna have to make that more of a five year loan and lower payments and there's a lot of different moving parts.
Justin Bogard:Exactly. Yeah. My first strategy would be to get in there, number one, can you even buy the loan from the lender? And you Right, you brought up a great point. How, if you were, if any of us talking about this right now listening to this podcast, would, would, if you were the lender in that situation, would you wanna take a big discount? You've gotta be pretty motivated to want to sell that loan knowing that you have to sell it at a good discount for someone else to pick it up. Right. And you can sell it and act like it's sexy and talk about the interest rate, and they still owe you this much and owe it's worth this today. And it's like, eh, that that's very subjective and it's gonna be hard for them to want to sell that loan at a discount. So if you get past that battle, and that's the first step, the second battle would be, can this guy afford to finish it? If I just give him a two year loan, you know, like maybe a balloon payment after 36 months and just amateurize it over 30 years, would that situation work? Like I would be very open to that to make it, you know, just like a rear of the loan, like a, like a non owner occupied loan. But yeah, I think the first battle would be very difficult to get passed. And if that lender is willing to take a big discount, yes
Richard Thornton:Or no? Yeah. Because, because if, if a if I'm a experienced hard money lender, I've probably got some flipping experience myself mm-hmm.<affirmative>, that's, or you should<laugh> and if you don't, shame on you. Yeah. You couldn't, you shouldn't be hard, hard money lending. I mean, you have to basically have, uh, been in that pool before you, uh, start lending into it. And so rather than take the$40,000 hit just to go with my example, I'd say, you know what? Deed the thing over to me and I'll finish it out. Yeah. Uh, and even though I don't like the time hassle, um, rather than take that hit up front, that's what I would do. So I think it's gonna be a little bit difficult to get, uh, transactions like that. Although, um, they could be very profitable if you, if you can. Yeah.
Justin Bogard:Yeah. Hard money loans can be a great business. You know, you just have to have a good constant flow of deals because once your deal matures, if you don't have the next deal lined up ready to fund, you just get some yield drag and it screws up your entire entire annualized return. So there's, you know, people out there that, that miss uh, miss boast, I'm trying to make up a word here about how much they make with their hard money loans, but if they have three or four months of time lagged where they don't have their money funded a deal, they, they've just negated basically three or 4% already on their, on their hard money, all that they landed out in the first place.
Richard Thornton:Yeah. I mean, it, it, uh, so what it kinda all boils down to is, is when I was flipping, um, I got out of it because a lot of the weekend flippers started to get into it and they'd been watching too much HG t v and if you watched any of those shows, miraculously, they didn't have to pay any permit fees. And miraculously their, uh, projects didn't have any surprises in them. Um, like the one I described at the beginning of the show here. Uh, and, uh, they all worked. Uh, so, uh, those are all, uh, cautions, um, that I would give to anybody who wants to do a non-performing loan.
Justin Bogard:Awesome. Richard, we're gonna have to segue into something else real quick. Just want to give a shout out to our sponsor, which is American Note Buyers, which is an A and B funds company. And if you haven't already, please check out our new website, a b funds.com. It's a and b funds.com. And you can see all of our, our latest offering and the things that we do at American Note buyers. Richard, what is the one thing that you learned at Vietnam? Um, you come back with looking at something differently?
Richard Thornton:Um,
Justin Bogard:I know I put you on the spot so I Yeah, apologize.
Richard Thornton:Well, it's, yeah, it sounds kind of, uh, uh, trite, um, to say this, but, um, I just, uh, was once again reminded, uh, of all the systems that we have here that work mm-hmm.<affirmative> and the systems in places like that, that don't work. And, uh, by that I mean there's the water. I mean, you can't drink the water, right. Uh, you know, there's a lot of other things like at, but just in day-to-day life, you know, there's, there's, uh, we sort of coined, um, the word the Vietnam Way. And if anybody's Vietnam Vietnamese out there, I certainly don't want to, uh, offend them. But it's really sort of the, the lesser developed country way and mean, and what do I mean by that? Um, I, I mean that if we say we're gonna rent a car in America and you go through Hertz or Budget or wherever mm-hmm.<affirmative>, the car's probably gonna be there in Vietnam, maybe, maybe not.<laugh>
Justin Bogard:<laugh>.
Richard Thornton:And you ask why and they say, well, it just didn't show up, and well, why didn't it show up? And they don't have a real reason. And so everything is, is just a whole lot looser. Gotcha. And you, you appre you appreciate the, um, the systems that we have set up here.
Justin Bogard:Awesome. Very good. All right, that wraps for today. This is episode number three of the Beta Bank podcast. And I am Justin Bogart. My partner here is Richard Thornton until episode number four. We'll see you guys later.
Richard Thornton:Bye-bye.
Narrarator:Thanks for listening to Be the Bank. We hope you learned something from today's show. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us. Plus check out our channel on YouTube and follow us on Facebook and Twitter at Be The Bank and on Instagram at Be the Bank Podcast, be The Bank is sponsored by American Note Buyers. Thanks again for listening.